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will.sch [LibreList] RDC 15 2015-10-15 13:25:28 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 09:54:00 ago)


Hi,

I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.

One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.

I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.

Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!

Will
Steve Phillips [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 14:07:49 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 09:11:00 ago)

I use Tarsnap for simple backup (yay for encryption!). I simply don't sync data between my devices because there's no _open source_ software that _securely_ allows me to do so.

Tahoe-LAFS might be good enough, since at least I could access my data from everywhere, but it doesn't even have an Android client!

I self-host Camlistore, but its Android client is so out of date that it doesn't work anymore (I could build one from source and side-load it, but I haven't gotten around to it). I have it installed on a 32-bit computer I'm about to wipe and replace with a 64-bit one.

I won't let someone else host my data unless it's a zero-knowledge system (like Tahoe-LAFS) so I don't have to trust it.

I may just start using Dropbox again and only put encrypted stuff in there, knowing full well that Dropbox joined the NSA's PRISM program :-/.

This should be easier!

--Steven

On Oct 15, 2015 12:08 PM, "Francis Irving" <francis@flourish.org> wrote:
Hello! 
 
News stuff sounds really interesting!
 
I'm going to do a session on decentralized file sync/backup tools. Get everyone's recommendations in groups with postit notes, and collectively file bugs and improve documentation. 
 
What tools do people use day to day for sync/backup? What problems stop you using any such tool and mean you fall back to Dropbox or Crashplan? 
 
I would love it if other people run similar sessions on the other tools people most want (see survey on Redecentralize.org homepage) eg on state of instant messaging alternatives. 
 
Francis 
 
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, at 06:25 PM, will.sch wrote:
 
 
Hi,
 
I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.
 
One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.
 
I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.
 
Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!
 
Will
 
Francis Irving [LibreList] Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 20:07:43 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 03:11:00 ago)
g!
 
I'm going to do a session on decentralized file sync/backup tools. Get everyone's recommendations in groups with postit notes, and collectively file bugs and improve documentation. 
 
What tools do people use day to day for sync/backup? What problems stop you using any such tool and mean you fall back to Dropbox or Crashplan? 
 
I would love it if other people run similar sessions on the other tools people most want (see survey on Redecentralize.org homepage) eg on state of instant messaging alternatives. 
 
Francis 
 
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, at 06:25 PM, will.sch wrote:
 
 
Hi,
 
I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.
 
One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.
 
I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.
 
Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!
 
Will
 
Seth [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 20:23:59 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 02:55:00 ago)
Steve Phillips [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 21:08:34 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 02:10:00 ago)
Syncthing offers no encryption at all, unfortunately; you have to trust the server storing your data.  I'd love for crypto to be added!  It's even written in Go, my fav programming language and the one I know the best.

I forgot to mention SparkleShare, which I wasn't able to install on my Ubuntu laptop because I wasn't running the very latest version, but I installed it elsewhere and it worked pretty well, but it's not zero-knowledge; the server stores the original filenames in plain text.  It does require a TON of Mono dependencies, though, which I don't like.

I need to try Seafile!  It satisfies almost all my needs, except this: "CAUTION: The client side encryption is not work currently for mobile client, web browser and the cloud file browser of the desktop client."  So you don't always get encryption.  Lame.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Seth <list@sysfu.com> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 14:07:49 -0700, Steve Phillips <steve@tryingtobeawesome.com> wrote:

I use Tarsnap for simple backup (yay for encryption!). I simply don't sync data between my devices because there's no _open source_ software that _securely_ allows me to do so.


Curious to know the specific reasons why Syncthing does not qualify.

Seth [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 22:11:20 (3 years 8 mons 28 days 01:08:00 ago)
Steve Phillips [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 23:36:19 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 23:43:00 ago)

> ...it seems that you not have the desire or ability to run a client somewhere that is globally accessible on a 24/7 basis?

That is essentially what I do now with Camlistore, but that's true; I could :-). Perhaps I should try it out...

On Oct 15, 2015 10:12 PM, "Seth" <list@sysfu.com> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:08:34 -0700, Steve Phillips <steve@tryingtobeawesome.com> wrote:

Syncthing offers no encryption at all, unfortunately; you have to trust the server storing your data.  I'd love for crypto to be added!  It's even written in Go, my fav programming language and the one I know the best.

OK, I was confused because to the best of my knowledge, syncthing provides TLS encryption for data on the wire, just not at rest.

Syncthing does also does not require a 'server' per se, it seems that you you not have the desire or ability to run a client somewhere that is globally accessible on a 24/7 basis?
Steve Phillips [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-15 23:38:58 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 23:40:00 ago)

> ...I run Syncthing on my laptop and phone to share files. It works quite nicely!

Very interesting! How do your devices find each other? Any SSL cert issues? Is this an Android phone? Thanks.

--Steven

On Oct 15, 2015 10:18 PM, "J. Ryan Stinnett" <jryans@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Steve Phillips
<steve@tryingtobeawesome.com> wrote:
> Syncthing offers no encryption at all, unfortunately; you have to trust the
> server storing your data.  I'd love for crypto to be added!  It's even
> written in Go, my fav programming language and the one I know the best.

I think most people use Syncthing to sync devices they control. So, in
that case you should be able to trust yourself!

For example, I run Syncthing on my laptop and phone to share files. It
works quite nicely!

- Ryan
J. Ryan Stinnett [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-16 00:17:23 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 23:02:00 ago)
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Steve Phillips
<steve@tryingtobeawesome.com> wrote:
> Syncthing offers no encryption at all, unfortunately; you have to trust the
> server storing your data.  I'd love for crypto to be added!  It's even
> written in Go, my fav programming language and the one I know the best.

I think most people use Syncthing to sync devices they control. So, in
that case you should be able to trust yourself!

For example, I run Syncthing on my laptop and phone to share files. It
works quite nicely!

- Ryan
J. Ryan Stinnett [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-16 07:00:59 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 16:18:00 ago)
On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 1:38 AM, Steve Phillips
<steve@tryingtobeawesome.com> wrote:
>> ...I run Syncthing on my laptop and phone to share files. It works quite
>> nicely!
>
> Very interesting! How do your devices find each other? Any SSL cert issues?
> Is this an Android phone? Thanks.

Syncthing uses both local network discovery (broadcast / multicast
depending on IPv4 vs. v6) and global discovery across networks with a
discovery server.

The global discovery server is something the Syncthing project hosts
by default. If you are always on the same network though, you could
just disable global discovery, since it's not needed there. If you do
need global discovery but don't trust their server, you can also host
it yourself[1]. The discovery server only exchanges devices addresses
so they can each find other, no actual data is sent to it. Anyway,
there are options!

I've never had trouble with certs while using it. Syncthing generates
certs for each device. When you first allow two devices to sync with
each other, you have to provide the "device ID" from one to the other
(which is really the cert fingerprint / SHA-256 hash). On a phone, you
can scan a QR code to do this.

Yes, I was using an Android phone. There's an app for it which bundles
the official Go binary with an Android UI.

[1]: http://docs.syncthing.net/users/discosrv.html

- Ryan
holger krekel [LibreList] any meeting point for tonight? 2015-10-16 08:18:38 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 15:00:00 ago)
Hi Will and everybody,

is there some meeting point for tonight?  I'd appreciate directions as i am bound
to arrive 19:39 in the evening today at London St. Pancras international train station.
Any pointers that can be given within the next two hours would be grand because
afterwards i'll be offline :)

holger


On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 13:25 -0400, will.sch wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.
> 
> One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without comprom
>  ising their integrity.
> 
> I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.
> 
> Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!
> 
> Will

-- 
about me:    http://holgerkrekel.net/about-me/
contracting: http://merlinux.eu
Jörg F. Wittenberger [LibreList] Re: Sync/backup session was Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-16 11:31:17 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 11:48:00 ago)
Am 15.10.2015 um 21:07 schrieb Francis Irving:
> Hello!
> 
> News stuff sounds really interesting!
> 
> I'm going to do a session on decentralized file sync/backup tools. Get
> everyone's recommendations in groups with postit notes, and collectively
> file bugs and improve documentation.
> 
> What tools do people use day to day for sync/backup? What problems stop
> you using any such tool and mean you fall back to Dropbox or Crashplan?

I'm using ball.askemos.org for some file storage, notes, diary, wiki
etc.  Since it' scriptable and provides a fresh sqlite db for each
object new applications are as easy as anywhere else.

Advantages: per-object set of replica (full replication to each side,
unlike e.g. Tahoe), 2/3rd-majority of those replica required to update
objects (byzantine fault tolerant agreement, no SPOF), easy (typically
used via webbrowser), fast if compared to say Ethereum (ca. 2 updates
per second per object; but each object has it's own "blockchain" so it
scales by parallel operation), maintains DNS records for dynamic peers
(try "dig ball.askemos.org" - most of those IP's are ARM-SoC systems at
the homes of friends).  (And yes: it delivers it's own website from
those SoCs.)

Downsides: the fuse client is not stable enough to be released publicly
and WebDAV is no longer widely supported on client sides.  While the
whole thing should itself be able to run on Android, nobody had the
resources to actually compile for it.  GUI client is just under
development.  Same for transition to elliptic curve (using tweetnacl)
based encryption instead of SSL.  So it's not ready for the casual end
user to simply install.

Best

/Jörg

> 
> I would love it if other people run similar sessions on the other tools
> people most want (see survey on Redecentralize.org homepage) eg on state
> of instant messaging alternatives.
> 
> Francis
> 
> On Thu, 15 Oct 2015, at 06:25 PM, will.sch wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm Will (one of
> the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively
> excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a
> lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it
> will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas.
> Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change
> in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.
>>
>> One
>  of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news
>  publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are
>  censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more
>  accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens.
>  After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to
>  make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It
>  is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also
>  need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our
>  problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this
>  and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and
>  say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology
>  can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a
>  background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which
>  businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become
>  mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.
>>
>> I
>  will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers
>  so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward
>  to seeing you all on Saturday.
>>
>> Also everyone
>  feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get
>  to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday.
>  It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!
>>
>> Will
> 

Christian de Larrinaga [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-16 13:38:46 (3 years 8 mons 27 days 09:40:00 ago)
I wish I could come along.  Though your note makes me feel 'plus ça change'!

When I established a decentralised news network known then as The London Third World Press Centre in 1987/8.  The motivation was very much to redress the balance or rather lack of, from mainstream media reporting on developing world issues by having correspondents communicate directly between each other and with media organisations. I will leave it to you to judge how successful that ambition has been.

The design team I led put together a peer to peer application infrastructure to support targeted distribution and clearing of news, events and distribution of background materials and personal interest preferences from anywhere in the world with each other that worked over PSTN via mobile devices correspondents used at the time and acoustic couplers. Internet was not a big thing in UK let alone Africa then. 

I've been thinking about how the vision was not really accomplished after the World Bank and others took it over and what to do about that. One observation is key institutions can't think let alone act in decentralised or distributed ways.  So even a bullet proof decentralised service tends to become centralised to suit the organisational and cultural expectations of such organisations. There are some legalistic liability excuses that escalate this trend of course.

The web also has also trended in that direction. Although the web's design left the door wide open to centralisation by separating out client and server functionality which was a consequence of a design choice for broken 'hyper' links.  That simplification was pivotal and not always in a good way for making application design decisions. Particularly where today developers have no experience of a pre web world.

Whether the "realtime" web is scalable remains to be seen but the opportunity is now emerging and I have to say I am intrigued enough by my recent dips into it to wonder if the time is not right to revisit some of these ideas.

If the meeting comes up with interest do get in touch!
thanks


 Christian

will.sch wrote:


Hi,

I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.

One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.

I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.

Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!

Will

--
Christian de Larrinaga  FBCS, CITP,
-------------------------
@ FirstHand
-------------------------
+44 7989 386778
cdel@firsthand.net
-------------------------

Francis Irving [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-17 01:17:28 (3 years 8 mons 26 days 22:02:00 ago)
rning from your experience!
 
Francis
 
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015, at 01:38 PM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
I wish I could come along.  Though your note makes me feel 'plus ça change'!
 
When I established a decentralised news network known then as The London Third World Press Centre in 1987/8.  The motivation was very much to redress the balance or rather lack of, from mainstream media reporting on developing world issues by having correspondents communicate directly between each other and with media organisations. I will leave it to you to judge how successful that ambition has been.
 
The design team I led put together a peer to peer application infrastructure to support targeted distribution and clearing of news, events and distribution of background materials and personal interest preferences from anywhere in the world with each other that worked over PSTN via mobile devices correspondents used at the time and acoustic couplers. Internet was not a big thing in UK let alone Africa then. 
 
I've been thinking about how the vision was not really accomplished after the World Bank and others took it over and what to do about that. One observation is key institutions can't think let alone act in decentralised or distributed ways.  So even a bullet proof decentralised service tends to become centralised to suit the organisational and cultural expectations of such organisations. There are some legalistic liability excuses that escalate this trend of course.
 
The web also has also trended in that direction. Although the web's design left the door wide open to centralisation by separating out client and server functionality which was a consequence of a design choice for broken 'hyper' links.  That simplification was pivotal and not always in a good way for making application design decisions. Particularly where today developers have no experience of a pre web world.
 
Whether the "realtime" web is scalable remains to be seen but the opportunity is now emerging and I have to say I am intrigued enough by my recent dips into it to wonder if the time is not right to revisit some of these ideas.
 
If the meeting comes up with interest do get in touch!
thanks
 
 
 Christian
 
will.sch wrote:
 
 
Hi,
 
I'm Will (one of the many volunteers helping to organise RDC 15). Firstly I'm massively excited about this weekend's conference. I think we are going to have a lot of fun and there are some exceptionally talented people coming so it will be a great opportunity for everyone to learn and hear new ideas. Decentralization is a big opportunity to create positive societal change in many areas and that is the reason I volunteered to help.
 
One of my main interests is looking at ways in which we can create news publications that are controlled and edited by it's readers, that are censorship proof, that remove bias from journalism and allows more accurate and transparent dissemination of information to citizens. After all, information and news are what allows us, as a society to make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this and exploring the ideas behind this if anyone is interested come and say hello. Asides from this I have a deep interest in how technology can help us all and how we can keep the web open and free. I have a background in internet marketing so I also look at ways in which businesses can be ethical and how ethical projects can become mainstream and adoptable without compromising their integrity.
 
I will be on hand at the conference along with all the other volunteers so if you need anything at all do not hesitate to ask! I look forward to seeing you all on Saturday.
 
Also everyone feel free to use this mailing list to open up the conversation and get to know one another before the conference official starts on Saturday. It's every bodies conference and all ideas are welcome so don't be shy!
 
Will
 
--
Christian de Larrinaga  FBCS, CITP,
-------------------------
@ FirstHand
-------------------------
+44 7989 386778
-------------------------
 
 
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