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Christian de Larrinaga [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] The next billion. A broken web. Social implications. 2015-09-17 18:26:32 (3 years 9 mons 26 days 04:55:00 ago)
OK.


C

Anish Mangal wrote:
> Hi Christian,
> 
> Go right ahead! :)
> 
> Yes, in the village case (#2), they are more interested in connecting
> their village (i.e. residents with one another) locally and to other
> neighbouring villages through wifi and directional antennas. Internet is
> secondary.
> 
> Also should make it clear at this point that this is NOT a commercial
> service. There is no plan to charge "users" with "fees" - just the
> upfront installation cost will be borne through a means and running
> costs taken care of.
> 
> Best,
> Anish
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Christian de Larrinaga
> <cdel@firsthand.net <mailto:cdel@firsthand.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Anish these are great examples. Do you mind if I push them to some
>     people who work in school online community building to see if they have
>     any thoughts or support to offer you to help take this forward?
> 
>     Am I right in assuming you are offering a connectivity service locally?
> 
>     Christian
> 
>     Anish Mangal wrote:
>     > Hi hk (sorry don't have your name),
>     >
>     > Thank you for this well thought out and long response, a lot of
>     which I
>     > can connect with.
>     >
>     > My primary focus is certainly not to "educate", perhaps I used the
>     wrong
>     > word. If you read my email, the progression went something like
>     >
>     > pull from the field about being aware of pitfalls and benefits
>     >> "Whether it be some educator or an elder in the village, they want to
>     > be aware of the benefits and the dangers of enabling internet access."
>     >
>     > me being naive
>     >> I myself believed that the internet is a force for good, and wider
>     > internet access is the only way forward.
>     >
>     > me growing up (though certainly not being free of biases), and
>     trying to
>     > best address that need.
>     >
>     > In most of the places I work in, I try to rely less on my "educating",
>     > or imparting knowledge, and more on observing whether the people
>     who are
>     > on the ground, who are part of that community have within themselves
>     > (mostly motivation) to think this through. I *do* believe this is
>     > necessary in learning environments like schools where we deploy
>     servers.
>     >
>     > So, what I am looking to answer is how to best address that motivation
>     > to learn about the internet. I do not claim to be smarter than
>     anybody,
>     > certainly in the sense that my way is the right way - but I do
>     recognize
>     > that it is important to discuss things which people might not be a
>     ware
>     > of on their own when they first get online, and make their own
>     decisions
>     > - and being free of bias while doing that.
>     >
>     > To throw in some real world data, here are two cases from the
>     Himalayas
>     > in India:
>     >
>     > School #1:
>     > Large school, does not allow internet access for children, though slow
>     > internet is available in the area a year or so ago. A content, and
>     media
>     > server is present in the school. Now, faster internet is
>     available, but
>     > the school admins don't want to enable internet because:
>     > - They claim they do not know the dangers, they've heard stories that
>     > "somebody got on the internet and did X which resulted in Y"
>     > - They want to be able to curate the content their students have
>     access to.
>     > - School principal is open to deploying technology and exploring new
>     > methods of learning. Currently they pay some money to a proprietary
>     > content vendor but they want to get out that deal gradually with the
>     > profusion of freely licensed, high quality learning content.
>     >
>     > Village community #2:
>     > - Small village, about 30-50 families spread over a mountain slope
>     > looking to setup a village network.
>     > - The person from the community with whom I had the conversation with
>     > has been living there for 20 yrs and is very concerned about the
>     privacy
>     > implications of accessing the internet. He wants originally to
>     create a
>     > local web and then enable internet access in a controlled fashion.
>     > - Is afraid of people uploading objectionable content which may pose a
>     > threat to the network (i.e. some govt. agency might use it as an
>     excuse
>     > to shut it down) so wants to grow this slowly in a trust building kind
>     > of fashion.
>     >
>     >
>     > So, here's the question. How would you best engage in a conversation
>     > with these communities? Note that we only deploy in places where there
>     > is strong pull from the field, since that automatically implies people
>     > on the ground will have the time, resources and energy to take things
>     > forward and take ownership of the technology they're setting up/using.
>     >
>     > --
>     > Anish
>     >
>     >
>     > On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:47 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org
>     <mailto:hellekin@gnu.org>
>     > <mailto:hellekin@gnu.org <mailto:hellekin@gnu.org>>> wrote:
>     >
>     > On 09/17/2015 09:52 AM, Anish Mangal wrote:
>     >
>     >> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
>     >> engaging them in conversation which was the thing I had in mind
>     when I
>     >> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
>     >> internet a better place :-)
>     >
>     >
>     > The problem with "educating people" is that you're already coming with
>     > the assumption that you're right, and they should come to
>     agreement with
>     > your position if only they had the correct information.  It might not
>     > feel like this, but it's the case.  Many cultures around the world
>     have
>     > conflicting world with the global Western approach.
>     >
>     > The Western mind has a lust for general principles and since Descartes
>     > and with the Enlightenment, we have a tendency to reduce the
>     picture of
>     > the world to support our totalitarian claims.  If Newtonian physics
>     > works most of the time, we've known for a Century already that it does
>     > not in all cases.  But the reductionist world view still prevails,
>     > destroying as it builds, seeking universality from flattened and
>     > dysfunctional models.
>     >
>     > In the last few decades, a new force has been growing fast and strong,
>     > that rejects reductionism, but still proceeds from a similar bias: it
>     > starts considering an issue (e.g., Internet access), and restricts the
>     > field of observation until it fits the agenda; it still works on
>     > computable/measurable parts, and leaves complexity to "externalities".
>     > This "good enough" / "just in time" / "stakeholder" approach can
>     be very
>     > helpful in many circumstances, but still fails when people try to
>     > extrapolate universals from constituent parts.  I would call this the
>     > holographic approach.
>     >
>     > The difference between reductionism and this is that the former
>     assumes
>     > the world to be mechanical, and therefore entirely computable,
>     > measurable, controllable.  The latter, while it's a lot more
>     > sophisticated, still assumes homomorphism between a partial model and
>     > reality.  It works for specific, limited cases where we already
>     know the
>     > parts and can combine them according to some predetermined logic, and
>     > appears to be effective even in more complex cases.  But it often
>     comes
>     > at the expense of other ways to conceive life that do not assume an
>     > informational world.
>     >
>     > I do think there are homomorphisms in the world, but I do not
>     believe in
>     > an informational world that can be reduced to ones and zeros.  If you
>     > come to a conversation with the assumption that you're right and your
>     > interlocutor needs to be educated, then you're not ready to listen to
>     > them and understand where you might be wrong.  An awful lot of
>     > ideologies today assume that "progress" is "good", that "democracy" is
>     > "necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that
>     "technology"
>     > will bring all solutions to all problems.  They often fail to consider
>     > the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
>     > big picture" anything that "doesn't compute".
>     >
>     > A prime example is this belief that connecting everyone to the
>     Internet
>     > will bring more benefits than harm.  But so far, there's no
>     > demonstration that communities thrive better with Internet access.
>     > Certainly isolated communities can defend themselves better if
>     they can
>     > reach out to the Internauts and have them pressure their politicians.
>     >
>     > If "the next billion" is to connect to the Internet with Apple devices
>     > and Facebook, well, they won't get any benefit from it: they will join
>     > the hordes of ignorant people sucked by a machine that requires their
>     > brains and purchasing power to fulfill their own agenda.  There's
>     > nothing automatic in accessing the Internet and magically obtaining
>     > empowerment.  As you embrace new technologies, your environment
>     changes,
>     > and with it your organism, from biological to political.  With the few
>     > hindsight we have gained on communication technologies, we can
>     tell that
>     > powers already there can use them to their advantage as much as
>     wannabe
>     > liberation technologies, except at a must large scale: they act as
>     > amplifiers, but when everyone is shouting, who's listening?  As
>     much as
>     > I like the Internet, I'm still worried that promoting its expansion is
>     > more beneficial to the likes of Putin than to the rest of us.
>     >
>     > I didn't see much homogeneity within the ISOC to tell that local
>     > chapters can be helpful.  The Argentinian chapter for what I know
>     is an
>     > exclusive club of merchants who don't even take the time to update
>     their
>     > website nor respond to email.  But they still claim to be a local
>     > chapter of ISOC, and there's no official ISOC response trying to
>     unlock
>     > the situation.  The truth is that this is all a theater, where people
>     > try and play their part as much as they can.  But there's no text
>     > written for this piece.  Everyone is writing their part as we go.
>     > Acceptance without criticism means we're giving ink to those who do in
>     > the name of others, using their broken assumptions, confirmed in their
>     > biases by their apparent successes.
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     >
>     > ==
>     > hk
>     >
>     >
>     >
> 
>     --
>     Christian de Larrinaga  FBCS, CITP,
>     -------------------------
>     @ FirstHand
>     -------------------------
>     +44 7989 386778 <tel:%2B44%207989%20386778>
>     cdel@firsthand.net <mailto:cdel@firsthand.net>
>     -------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Christian de Larrinaga  FBCS, CITP,
-------------------------
@ FirstHand
-------------------------
+44 7989 386778
cdel@firsthand.net
-------------------------

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