that fits like a glove) have engaged in social engineering forever. That's nothing new. Maybe the question is whether there are any new *
solutions* to the old problems. Some combination of global instantaneous communication and digital storage might make it harder for people to behave dishonestly or inconsistently without
/...\ trying to compute trust with no points of reference. Once you have some externally-sourced trust anchors we're back to heterogeneous and hybrid
solutions.
> On a more pragmatic note, I think you have a chicken or egg problem with the idea of bootstrapping before turning the system
/...\ technology. I get the very basic surface of it, but I am really curious about how it might be used as part of a
solution to the trust bootstrapping problem. If hybrid overlapping heterogeneous
solutions are the way forward for network robustness, then maybe a similar concurrent cake
solution exists
On Aug 14, 2014, at 1:30 AM, David Geib < trustiosity.zrm@gmail.com > wrote: It
what we _should not_ do,
I don't see that as a viable suggestion... I am looking for technical
solution(s) rather than "don't use that!" "don't use the internet!" "don't
use facebook!" I am looking for someone to say "Do this! or this. or
that." (insert
/...\ This is surely no new concept to anyone on this list (the concept that we
can't rely upon laws, need to use technical
solutions to bypass what
passes for government/corporation-state, etc.) but I have to say this net
neutrality calls into stark contrast what we are doing with what
/...\ least in my view. Â But it also made me think some more about this and
realize that if we want decentralized protocols /
solutions to spread at
all, we have to do a way better job at being good advocates for them and
talking about them incessantly to everyone
what we _should not_ do,
I don't see that as a viable suggestion... I am looking for technical
solution(s) rather than "don't use that!" "don't use the internet!" "don't
use facebook!" I am looking for someone
/...\ This is surely no new concept to anyone on this list (the concept that we
can't rely upon laws, need to use technical
solutions to bypass what
passes for government/corporation-state, etc.) but I have to say this net
neutrality calls into stark contrast what we are doing with what
/...\ laws,
at least in my view. But it also made me think some more about this and
realize that if we want decentralized protocols /
solutions to spread at
all, we have to do a way better job at being good advocates for them and
talking about them incessantly to everyone
Jan Kunkel [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-10 15:34:56 could be a good alternative to OwnCloud.
Jan
On 10 Dec 2013, at 11:40, Benjamin ANDRE wrote:
> *"Anyone know of better
solutions?"*
>
> We are working hard on Cozy so that it can be a good alternative to
> some of
> the tools
/...\ then installed F-Droid and Aptoide to get some
>> apps to
>> interface with my server. It's not a perfect
solution, but it's easy,
>> and
>> it required no rooting and ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second
/...\ myself
>> notes
>> when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
>>
>> Anyone know of better
solutions?
>>
>> Danny
>>
>>
>> On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving wrote:
>>
>> Whats
ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
> it's worth remembering
> that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
> down to using coersion to ensure
> that participants in society behave in a approximately helpful manner.
The lesson
/...\ user* to ensure other *users* behave in helpful manner.
This is a social problem, hence we don't look for a technical
solution.
We may however look for technical
solutions to help. Like supporting
the user in selecting peers they know, trust (to some extend within some
specific context
/...\ abstain from
invention, we need to *model properly* to actually model property.)
You want to depend only on responsible peers. That's a trust
solution
again. So not technical, but something the user MUST be able to
decide. (No matter how hard this is for the implementor.)
So the model
Benjamin ANDRE [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-10 17:36:48 have to give
Cozy a try in the near future.
Danny
On 12/10/2013 05:40 AM, Benjamin ANDRE
wrote:
"Anyone know of better
solutions?"
We are working hard on Cozy so that it can be a good
alternative to some of the tools you mentioned !
We are still in beta
/...\ Google Location
Services. I then installed F-Droid and Aptoide to get
some apps to interface with my server. It's not a
perfect
solution, but it's easy, and it required no
rooting and ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second
phone.
For Gmail, I looked
/...\ plain text files and emailing
myself notes when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
Anyone know of better
solutions?
Danny
On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving wrote:
Whats the list of services you're
using instead of Google ones?
Would love a writeup of what
Francis Irving [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-10 01:52:00 blog post!
Your deadline is the end of the holidays - so say January 2nd?
Audience is 1) power users* interested in changing to decentralized
solutions, 2) in so doing, any developers / product designers reading
to learn pain points big and small that need addressing.
Markdown please (that's right
/...\ Services. I then installed F-Droid and
> Aptoide to get some apps to interface with my server. It's not a
> perfect
solution, but it's easy, and it required no rooting and
> ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second phone
/...\ plain text files and
> emailing myself notes when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
>
> Anyone know of better
solutions?
>
> Danny
>
> On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving wrote:
> >
> >Whats the list of services you're using
attack is launched against the network, you can then designate them as trusted parties without any external contact. This is like the Bitcoin
solution except that instead of using processing power as the limit on Sybils you use human face time. Then when the attack comes you already have trusted
/...\ technology. I get the very basic surface of it, but I am really curious about how it might be used as part of a
solution to the trust bootstrapping problem. If hybrid overlapping heterogenous
solutions are the way forward for network robustness, then maybe a similar concurrent cake
solution exists
Benjamin ANDRE [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-10 11:40:51 Anyone know of better
solutions?" We are working hard on Cozy so that it can be a good alternative to some of the tools you mentioned ! We are still in beta but we should release a stable versions of apps in january (we already released a stable version
/...\ Google Location Services. I then installed F-Droid and
Aptoide to get some apps to interface with my server. It's not a
perfect
solution, but it's easy, and it required no rooting and
ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second phone.
For Gmail, I looked
/...\ plain text files and
emailing myself notes when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
Anyone know of better
solutions?
Danny
On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving
wrote:
Whats the list of services you're using instead of
Google ones?
Would love a writeup of what
Danny Knestaut [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-10 10:16:04 have to give
Cozy a try in the near future.
Danny
On 12/10/2013 05:40 AM, Benjamin ANDRE
wrote:
"Anyone know of better
solutions?"
We are working hard on Cozy so that it can be a good
alternative to some of the tools you mentioned !
We are still in beta
/...\ Google Location
Services. I then installed F-Droid and Aptoide to get
some apps to interface with my server. It's not a
perfect
solution, but it's easy, and it required no
rooting and ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second
phone.
For Gmail, I looked
/...\ plain text files and emailing
myself notes when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
Anyone know of better
solutions?
Danny
On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving wrote:
Whats the list of services you're
using instead of Google ones?
Would love a writeup of what
Jan Kunkel [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-11 22:18:27
Danny Knestaut [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-09 14:15:09 Google Location Services. I then installed F-Droid and
Aptoide to get some apps to interface with my server. It's not a
perfect
solution, but it's easy, and it required no rooting and
ROMing, so I didn't have to brick a second phone.
For Gmail, I looked
/...\ plain text files and
emailing myself notes when I'm not in front of a proper computer.
Anyone know of better
solutions?
Danny
On 12/09/2013 08:22 AM, Francis Irving
wrote:
Whats the list of services you're using instead of
Google ones?
Would love a writeup of what
/...\ last one. I've since
cancelled my
Google account and have replaced almost all of the Google
services I
used with self-hosted
solutions that I control.
I'm interested in learning about the various alternatives to
centralization, and I'm happy to share what little knowledge
and
experience
central bugaboo. The central problem is trust. What and who do you trust, and why, and how do you compute this? The
solution most of the Internet uses is for real-world political entities (corporations, governments, etc.) to create signing certificates. This is also the
solution ZeroTier uses, more
/...\ shipping with acceptable defaults. If a user wanted to change them they could, but they don't have to. Right. Maybe a good
solution to the trust problem is exactly this: Build in acceptable trust defaults, but let the user change them if they want or add new entities
focused, persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. I should note that
Microsoft
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū) Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process of decentralization needs
Feross Aboukhadijeh [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] decentralization Yahoo group 2013-12-30 18:29:36 challenges that Jer referred to coming through. Specifically over the past year I have worked on a couple of commercial P2P type technology
solutions compared to none over the previous 15 years.
But xkcd summarizes those types of data points more succinctly :) http://xkcd.com/605/ Â > Date
/...\ better than centralizing did :/
> > I believe that's changing though and the next generation of challenges will be better served by decentralized
solutions. > > Jer > > > On Dec 30, 2013, at 7:36 AM, Francis Irving < francis@flourish.org > wrote:
> > > > This
persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). Â I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. Â I should note
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū)  Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process
focused, persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. I should note that
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū) Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process of decentralization needs
persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). Â I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. Â I should note
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū)  Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process
focused, persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. I should note that
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū) Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process of decentralization needs
persistent group of (governmental /
corporation-state / corporate / random malicious individual) actor(s). Â I
do think that migrating to open source (and free)
solutions will help
remove funding from such entities and will encourage a more healthy and
vibrant society through transparency and sharing. Â I should note
/...\ think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri Sekiei
(Muji-Shin-Jen ryū)  Nor do I think that technological
solutions are
everything. But that's what I'm asking about here.
3) That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process
ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
>> it's worth remembering
>> that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
>> down to using coersion to ensure
>> that participants in society behave in a approximately helpful
/...\ massive players by
>> > writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more
>> > democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem and even
>> > in the market place, it canât right now because
they cooperate.
Now, "ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
it's worth remembering
that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
down to using coersion to ensure
that participants in society behave in a approximately helpful manner.
Animals
/...\ domination of the ecosystem by massive players by writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem and even in the market place, it can’t right now because it is too technically challenging to deploy
ensure that
they cooperate.
Now, "ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
it's worth remembering
that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
down to using coersion to ensure
that participants in society behave in a approximately helpful manner.
Animals
/...\ domination of the ecosystem by massive players by writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem and even in the market place, it canât right now because it is too technically challenging
ensure that
they cooperate.
Now, "ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
it's worth remembering
that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
down to using coersion to ensure
that participants in society behave in a approximately helpful manner.
Animals
/...\ domination of the ecosystem by massive players by writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem and even in the market place, it canât right now because it is too technically challenging
ownership" is a concept deeply imbued into human society, but
>> it's worth remembering
>> that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
>> down to using coersion to ensure
>> that participants in society behave in a approximately
/...\ massive players by
>> > writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more
>> > democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem and even
>> > in the market place, it can’t right now because it is too technically
concept deeply imbued into human society, but
>> >> it's worth remembering
>> >> that it is essentially a
solution to this same problem. It all boils
>> >> down to using coersion to ensure
>> >> that participants in society
/...\ writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more
>> >> > democratic many-smaller-players
solution could win in the ecosystem
>> >> > and even
>> >> > in the market place, it can’t right now because
have to update my online accounts and call up my friends. But maybe I prefer yahoo's interface? Well, tough luck. So the
solution is RSA keypairs. If users sign their messages, it matters less who hosts and carries them. I could jump between yahoo and gmail any time
/...\ publish the verifications. (1) If there's a compromise, the same peers can publish a warning (revoke the verification). That gives a more usable
solution to "my account may have been hacked because it's sending weird emails" -- you create a new account, call up your friends, and have them
identity is
a) independent of the notary (you can just add or remove them like
here http://ball.askemos.org/A876f1fe6998ca9d43f2e66c11a3f0d4a?do=notaries&version=17&login=public
)
So the
solution is RSA keypairs. If users sign their
messages, it matters less who hosts and carries them. I could
jump between yahoo and gmail any time. I could jump
/...\ verifications. (1) If there's a compro mise, the same peers
can publish a warning (revoke the verification). That gives a
more usable
solution to "my account may have been hacked
because it's sending weird emails" -- you create a new
account, call up your friends, and have them flag
P S [LibreList] First Person Technologies 2014-03-29 17:32:15 person technologies for everybody. Without them our democracies and marketplaces will also continue to be compromised, because both require those three virtues of privacy. ... Solutions here will come, like our own voices, from our sovereign and independent selves, using tools that extend our native capabilities. They
Danny Knestaut [LibreList] Hello! 2013-12-08 18:21:21 last one. I've since cancelled my
Google account and have replaced almost all of the Google services I
used with self-hosted solutions that I control.
I'm interested in learning about the various alternatives to
centralization, and I'm happy to share what little knowledge and
experience
democracy" is
> "necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that "technology"
> will bring all solutions to all problems. They often fail to consider
> the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
> big picture
about deriving our technical efforts from clear and thorough
thinking rather than simply making stuff up based upon hunches?
Shallow thinking makes shallow solutions.
:-)
Nicholas.
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reliable. What's the value of n virtual asset stored at mobile when
the mobile is lost? Manual backup is no solution. As long as data
does not outlive gadgets there is little value left
better than centralizing did :/
>
> I believe that's changing though and the next generation of challenges will be better served by decentralized solutions.
What new challenges in particular do you have in mind
attack is launched against the network, you can then designate them as trusted parties without any external contact. This is like the Bitcoin solution except that instead of using processing power as the limit on Sybils you use human face time. Then when the attack comes you already have trusted
better than centralizing did :/
>
> I believe that's changing though and the next generation of challenges will be better served by decentralized solutions.
What new challenges in particular do you have in mind
real problems better than centralizing did :/
I believe that's changing though and the next generation of challenges will be better served by decentralized solutions.
Jer
> On Dec 30, 2013, at 7:36 AM, Francis Irving <francis@flourish.org> wrote:
>
> This archive is pretty amazing
Francis Irving [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-09 13:22:03 last one. I've since cancelled my
Google account and have replaced almost all of the Google services I
used with self-hosted solutions that I control.
I'm interested in learning about the various alternatives to
centralization, and I'm happy to share what little knowledge and
experience
trusted to reliably deliver the request.
Traditional broadcast media can actually solve both of them in different ways. Key distribution has the narrower solution. If you're The New York Times or CBS then you can e.g. print the QR code of your public key fingerprint on the back page
necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that
> "technology"
> > will bring all solutions to all problems. They often fail to consider
> > the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
> > big picture
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with
some
genius formalizing it, this should then lead to a proof b) betting for
not being true and try to come up with a solution, a proof by counter
example c) betting for being true and develop concepts to deal with it.
(Actually a 4th one: ignore the problem
consistent database is not enough here: we can't
>> trust the peer to store a correct value.
>>
>> Our solution is rather simple. Each wallet is replicated (tolerating
>> byzantine faults) at several notaries.
>>
>> For a small world (like
domination of the ecosystem by massive players by writing inequality into the network topology itself. Even if a more democratic many-smaller-players solution could win in the ecosystem and even in the market place, it can’t right now because it is too technically challenging to deploy
this kind received on the
list.
> In the interview, I had understood that the project was about "open
> source" solutions. Now, open source is already free software without
> ethics, but from there to "open read-only source", there's as huge
almost free world that corporations push now is no help
because people are not used to paying for software anymore, or
services.
Maybe the solution is to just charge for this stuff and fight the
race to the bottom. Another idea I had is charge corporations for
the right
frabcus [GG] Re: So centralized! 2016-04-06 07:24:00 ongoing maintenance / support the decentralized alternatives need to have to compete on user experience terms with the (ad funded, big tech co) centralized solutions! Francis
that "democracy" is
"necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that "technology"
will bring all solutions to all problems. They often fail to consider
the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
big picture" anything
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-09 13:51:08 since cancelled my Google account and have replaced almost all
> of the Google services I used with self-hosted solutions that I
> control.
>
> I'm interested in learning about the various alternatives to
> centralization, and I'm happy to share what little knowledge
about deriving our technical efforts from clear and thorough
thinking rather than simply making stuff up based upon hunches?
Shallow thinking makes shallow solutions.
:-)
Nicholas.
-- "You can't negotiate with reality." "You can, but it drives a really hard bargain
must not change.)
Having a eventually consistent database is not enough here: we can't
trust the peer to store a correct value.
Our solution is rather simple. Each wallet is replicated (tolerating
byzantine faults) at several notaries.
For a small world (like 5-20 peers) this could
must not change.)
Having a eventually consistent database is not enough here: we can't
trust the peer to store a correct value.
Our solution is rather simple. Each wallet is replicated (tolerating
byzantine faults) at several notaries.
For a small world (like 5-20 peers) this could
Having a eventually consistent database is not enough here: we can't
> trust the peer to store a correct value.
>
> Our solution is rather simple. Each wallet is replicated (tolerating
> byzantine faults) at several notaries.
>
> For a small world (like 5-20 peers) this
fancy word for proprietary
software, or am I mistaken?
In the interview, I had understood that the project was about "open
source" solutions. Now, open source is already free software without
ethics, but from there to "open read-only source", there's as huge
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Yesterday's London meet-up 2014-01-15 14:37:29 Fluidinfo, I'm have far too much fun and learning a
lot in the meantime and it's good to imagine / play / build solutions
as a mechanism for exploring a problem. To butcher an analogy, it's a
large garden and may many flowers bloom.
Finally, I think
ideologies today assume that "progress" is "good", that "democracy" is
> "necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that "technology"
> will bring all solutions to all problems. They often fail to consider
> the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
> big picture
technical efforts from clear and thorough
> thinking rather than simply making stuff up based upon hunches?
>
> Shallow thinking makes shallow solutions.
>
> :-)
>
> Nicholas.
>
>
>
> -- "You can't negotiate with reality." "You can, but it drives a
> really
person technologies for everybody. Without them our democracies and marketplaces will also continue to be compromised, because both require those three virtues of privacy.
... Solutions here will come, like our own voices, from our sovereign and independent selves, using tools that extend our native capabilities. They
awful lot of
ideologies today assume that "progress" is "good", that "democracy" is
"necessary", that "transparency" is "appropriate", or that "technology"
will bring all solutions to all problems. They often fail to consider
the genealogy and diversity of situations and tend to remove from "the
big picture" anything
them from you, just I guess hoping that questions
like these will always be asked by ourselves to ourselves when
we come up with solutions like you have.
I personally like the idea of cacheing entire resources like
Wikipedia and expanding access (hence by support of Swartz
attempting to download