On Aug 14, 2014, at 1:30 AM, David Geib < trustiosity.zrm@gmail.com > wrote: It
this with Bitcoin's response to GHASH.IO temporarily getting 51%. The response was rapid, and was coordinated via sites like Reddit /r/bitcoin and other
things completely separate from the block chain. This also makes me think more and more about hybrid systems where you've got multiple types of systems
/...\ network is concerned. But that's not what *we*, the sentient beings that use it, want. We want the network to do "the right
thing," but what's that? How does the network know what the right
thing is? As far as its concerned, when 51% of the network extends
/...\ block chain that's the right
thing... right?
Another way of putting this is that the Bitcoin users solve the trust problem by trusting the majority, where resistance to a Sybil attack comes from allocating votes proportional to computing power. Which works great until some entity amasses enough computing power
provides.
> There is *probably* a way to do it, but I think that life is easier if
> you embrace
things like eventually consistency and
> design
things to work with those principles instead of attempting to
> box them into something they arn't.
>
> The feed
/...\ value.
Still this calculation of "trust value" I did not find. Or did not
understand. I'm always interested in such
things.
> The
thing you seem to be describing is certainly quite complex,
Actually it's not. Undergrad CS students took usually about three days
interactive discussion
/...\ ball.askemos.org/A876f1fe6998ca9d43f2e66c11a3f0d4a
that is, this is one wallet of it. You want to log in using "public" to
find the actual
thing. It's controlled by a single (though having
80kLOC large) source file:
http://ball.askemos.org/Aa176138e655369f8c01c3044ced70cfc
(be sure to read that in whitespace preserving source mode
Adam Ierymenko [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Spring of User Experience 2014-02-28 10:00:04 user since 1992, but I love my Mac and I love really good user interfaces and zero-configuration apps. Why? Because I have better
things to do than futz around with my computer to get it to work. I am way, way too busy for that. I *hate*
things that
/...\ something trivial, or that require me to jigger with them to get them to work. I'd much rather be coding, writing, or doing
things in the real world like spending time with my family. I did sort of enjoy jiggering with
things like Linux when I was learning
/...\ that I know how to admin a machine, I don't want to do that anymore. I want to do new
things. That being said, there is often a tension between security and UX. Security is often accomplished through the erection of barriers, requiring the user to do extra steps
Geoffroy Couprie [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Spring of User Experience 2014-02-28 19:33:08 user since 1992, but I love my Mac and I love really good user interfaces and zero-configuration apps. Why? Because I have better
things to do than futz around with my computer to get it to work. I am way, way too busy for that. I *hate*
things that
/...\ trivial, or that require me to jigger with them to get them to work. I'd much rather be coding, writin
g, or doing
things in the real world like spending time with my family. I did sort of enjoy jiggering with
things like Linux when I was learning
/...\ that I know how to admin a machine, I don't want to do that anymore. I want to do new
things.
That being said, there is often a tension between security and UX. Security is often accomplished through the erection of barriers, requiring the user to do extra steps
sure, that would work.
What I really wanted to demonstrate is this: how *easy* it would be to massively decentralize a lot of
things if all the firewall/NAT cruft were out of the way.
Take Twitter for example. It lets me post tweets and follow other peoples’ tweets
/...\ does a few other
things but that’s the core functionality. What about that couldn’t be replaced by a web of bi-directional RSS reader apps? By bi-directional I mean a reader that is also a writer/publisher and that runs a little web server
/...\ could be used in a less centralized peer to peer manner if IP were allowed to actually work.
We do not need complicated
things like libjingle, WebRTC, Maidsafe, etc. All we need is IP. In the short term we can have this world using network virtualization layers and/or meshnets
point of compromise and a choke point for censorship and spying. > I agree that root CAs are horrible. I have had them do
things like send me a private key unencrypted to gmail. I am not making that up. No passphrase. To gmail.
And don't forget that they
/...\ folks responded to my post lamenting that I had given up on decentralization. That's not true at all. I am just doing two
things. One is trying to spin the problem around and conceptualize it differently. The other is giving the problem the respect it deserves
/...\ contact and you have no trusted path you really have nothing. That's why web of trust is the last resort. It's the
thing that comes closest to working when nothing else will. Which is also why it's terrible. Because you only need it when nothing else works
that would work.
>
> What I really wanted to demonstrate is this: how *easy* it would be to massively decentralize a lot of
things if all the firewall/NAT cruft were out of the way.
Network routing is certainly one important aspect of decentralization.
But suppose Google now served Search
/...\ best,
holger
>
> Take Twitter for example. It lets me post tweets and follow other peoples’ tweets. It does a few other
things but that’s the core functionality. What about that couldn’t be replaced by a web of bi-directional RSS reader apps
/...\ used in a less centralized peer to peer manner if IP were allowed to actually work.
>
> We do not need complicated
things like libjingle, WebRTC, Maidsafe, etc. All we need is IP. In the short term we can have this world using network virtualization layers and/or meshnets
routing problems you're aiming to solve with ZeroTier.
I have an admission to make. I did a very un-academic right-brainy
thing, in that I made a little bit of a leap. When I read “phase transition” it was sort of an epiphany moment. Perhaps
/...\ immediately got a mental image of a phase transition in state space where a system takes on new properties. You see that sort of
thing in those areas all the time.
But I don’t think it’s a huge leap. The question Tsitsiklis/Xu were looking
/...\ These other issues, such as this and the CAP theorem, are probably secondary in that if trust can be solved then these other
things can be tackled or the problem space can be redefined around them.
> Second, the advantage is gained by having a panoptic view of the whole
before signing it. That's the huge fail with the existing CAs. They'll sign anything. Moxie Marlinspike has had a number of relevant
things to say about that.
>
That's the general pattern that I see. The easiest approach is the most centralized approach... at least
/...\ Maybe over-centralization should be considered a form of technical debt.
I agree that root CAs are horrible. I have had them do
things like send me a private key unencrypted to gmail. I am not making that up. No passphrase. To gmail.
Hmm... Yeah, I think doing trust better
/...\ folks responded to my post lamenting that I had given up on decentralization. That's not true at all. I am just doing two
things. One is trying to spin the problem around and conceptualize it differently. The other is giving the problem the respect it deserves
Adam,
Great slide deck, really well done. Lots of good ideas there. When
I tell people that those
things are p2p they don't understand.
People think of napster or torrents as p2p and the media has made
using p2p to be something thieves and drug dealers and the
terrible
/...\ spend money, we get
(paradoxically) richer. We create a lot more economic activity
which creates many more opportunities and tends to inflate
things like wages in the long term.
So paying for stuff online makes you poorer, but if
nobody pays for anything online we get pathologies like the
surveillance
/...\ computing. (All the
tech, like containers and VMs, is old mainframe tech
reimagined/rebooted.) Now we’re starting to see some
efforts to push
things back toward personal computing
again, albeit with a different more networked model
from the old grey box PC.
There are aspects of the cloud that
mechanisms (for example, by the FCC mustering the political will to classify broadband companies as "common carriers", or by Congress passing new law). These
things are politically difficult, but not impossible, and should be one of the
things the Internet works to make happen.
At the same time, we should
/...\ strong belief in net neutrality that much of society (and the US government) has is due to technology shaping culture and norms. Building new
things is one of the ways to create social change.
Just don't cast out the entire idea of laws. Now's the time to organize
/...\ also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: Â "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri
mechanisms (for example, by the FCC mustering the political will to classify broadband companies as "common carriers", or by Congress passing new law). These
things are politically difficult, but not impossible, and should be one of the
things the Internet works to make happen.
At the same time, we should
/...\ strong belief in net neutrality that much of society (and the US government) has is due to technology shaping culture and norms. Building new
things is one of the ways to create social change.
Just don't cast out the entire idea of laws. Now's the time to organize
/...\ desire. I also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over
exampl
e, by the FCC mustering the political will to classify broadband companies as "common carriers", or by Congress passing new law). These
things are politically difficult, but not impossible, and should be one of the
things the Internet works to make happen.
At the same time, we should keep
/...\ strong belief in net neutrality that much of society (and the US government) has is due to technology shaping culture and norms. Building new
things is one of the ways to create social change.
Just don't cast out the entire idea of laws. Now's the time to organize
/...\ also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: Â "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri
exampl
e, by the FCC mustering the political will to classify broadband companies as "common carriers", or by Congress passing new law). These
things are politically difficult, but not impossible, and should be one of the
things the Internet works to make happen.
At the same time, we should keep
/...\ strong belief in net neutrality that much of society (and the US government) has is due to technology shaping culture and norms. Building new
things is one of the ways to create social change.
Just don't cast out the entire idea of laws. Now's the time to organize
/...\ desire. I also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over
exampl
e, by the FCC mustering the political will to classify broadband companies as "common carriers", or by Congress passing new law). These
things are politically difficult, but not impossible, and should be one of the
things the Internet works to make happen.
At the same time, we should keep
/...\ strong belief in net neutrality that much of society (and the US government) has is due to technology shaping culture and norms. Building new
things is one of the ways to create social change.
Just don't cast out the entire idea of laws. Now's the time to organize
/...\ also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: Â "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over the opponent." - Odagiri
radio spectrum but it's a sunk cost (at least until the FCC reallocates more of their spectrum). You can even do the same
thing without a broadcast tower, it just has the same lack of efficiency. It's simple enough to have every node regularly tell every other node
/...\ everyone equally. The question then is whether people need to agree at the âmetaâ level on some common
things that they all trust, and if so how this is accomplished. Seems to me that they do otherwise cooperation becomes difficult (game theory territory).
That
/...\ must agree on what protocol to use" sense but I don't think dynamic global consensus is actually required in general. The
things like that which everyone has to agree about are relatively static. Meanwhile if Alice and Bob want to communicate then Alice and Bob have to agree
developer who has never written a line of C professionally. And even that chart is helpful in focusing people's attention.
The one
thing that rubs me the wrong way is lumping in JSON and XML as
things that have to be replaced with a "smarter" protocol, PSYC
/...\ time and complexity, is more rigid, etc.
I don't know, I don't want to criticize a great effort over maybe a small
thing, but it's already asking developers to start over on a number of
things. If the effort wants to gain traction, maybe consider taking
people hear "open source" or "p2p" they might think of Ubuntu, or
Android (regarding open source OSs) or Bittorrent, or Piratebay (in terms
of
things that come to mind if an ordinary human is asked what do they
thing of as an example of P2P or F2F tech
/...\ prism-break
( http://prism-break.org/ ) - an option which is so simple that anyone (at
least in primary school levels) can understand it and act on
things
presented in it within less than a minute. Â Look. Software. Click (one
click, two max!) to get it. Done.
2) What are some
/...\ ways to Decentralize Everything? To the DNS and beyond?
Stuff that comes to mind (remember, there is no one
thing, there are no
captains, there is no one solution, these are just examples of possible
partial solutions being thrown out here):
  2)a. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/
could do this.
There is *probably* a way to do it, but I think that life is easier if
you embrace
things like eventually consistency and
design
things to work with those principles instead of attempting to
box them into something they arn't.
The feed in secure scuttlebutt
/...\ cryptographically prove that they did indeed perform a
such as relaying your data for you, hence we need to calculate a trust
value.
The
thing you seem to be describing is certainly quite complex,
and currently we are focusing on figuring out how to design much
simpler
things that
Eric, >>Â I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of,
things
>> Â that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting. I am working on Cozy Cloud. It aims at providing every one an abstraction
/...\ taken aback. But they acknowledge this fact all the time and are working on addressing that.
And also, that's really just for publishing
things. For using
things, even this tiny proof-of-concept Dockerfile for Piwik  got me way farther and was much easier than the official
/...\ Product, I ran out of steam.
>>
>> I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of,
things
>> Â that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting.
>> I haven't seen anything like
spend money, we get (paradoxically) richer. We create a lot more economic activity which creates many more opportunities and tends to inflate
things like wages in the long term. So paying for stuff online makes you poorer, but if nobody pays for anything online we get pathologies like the surveillance
/...\ computing. (All the tech, like containers and VMs, is old mainframe tech reimagined/rebooted.) Now we’re starting to see some efforts to push
things back toward personal computing again, albeit with a different more networked model from the old grey box PC. There are aspects of the cloud that
/...\ aren’t going away though. At central data centers it’s possible to achieve economies of scale that can make
things like storage and compute cheaper in bulk there than they are in a distributed system. They can also be more reliable. I host many
things
source" or "p2p" they might think of Ubuntu, or
Android (regarding open source OSs) or Bittorrent, or Piratebay (in terms
of
things that come to mind if an ordinary human is asked what do they
thing of as an example of P2P or F2F tech). Given
/...\ break
(http://prism-break.org/) - an option which is so simple that anyone (at
least in primary school levels) can understand it and act on
things
presented in it within less than a minute. Look. Software. Click (one
click, two max!) to get it. Done.
2) What are some ways
/...\ Decentralize Everything? To the DNS and beyond?
Stuff that comes to mind (remember, there is no one
thing, there are no
captains, there is no one solution, these are just examples of possible
partial solutions being thrown out here):
2)a. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/
2)b. https://github.com/namecoin
driver, which is a fork of the OpenVPN tap-windows driver with some extra ioctls that I added to support a few
things ZT1 needs and Windows does not provide. That is working and the tap driver is working, but there are still some rough edges around what goes into
/...\ they look right in the native Windows network connection dialogs. I want the user to be able to use those dialogs too to do
things like set firewall policies on a per-tap basis and have those settings stick. 3) I want to make sure that these connections
/...\ into the Windows network connections dialogs and say so. I'd say ETA about a month for Windows since once those two
things are nailed down I will want to do a few weeks of my own testing and let auto-update run several times in various
certainly in the sense that my way is the right way - but I do
> recognize
> > that it is important to discuss
things which people might not be a
> ware
> > of on their own when they first get online, and make their own
> decisions
/...\ strong pull from the field, since that automatically implies people
> > on the ground will have the time, resources and energy to take
things
> > forward and take ownership of the technology they're setting up/using.
> >
> > --
> > Anish
/...\ believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
> >> engaging them in conversation which was the
thing I had in mind
> when I
> >> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
> >> internet a better place
other issues, such as this and the
> CAP theorem, are probably secondary in that if trust can be solved
> then these other
things can be tackled or the problem space can be
> redefined around them.
I totally agree. Perhaps Tor would be an interesting example to think
/...\ because it's decentralised at the level of resource allocation
but centralised at the level of trust. The Tor directory authorities
are the closest
thing I can think of to a Blind Idiot God: they act as
a trust anchor for the system while remaining deliberately ignorant
about who uses
/...\ routine” or huge-scale.
Onion routing will always be more expensive than direct routing, but
bandwidth keeps getting cheaper, so the set of
things for which onion
routing is affordable will keep growing.
Latency is a bigger issue than bandwidth in my opinion. In theory you
can pass
smarter than anybody, certainly in the sense that my way is the right way - but I do recognize that it is important to discuss
things which people might not be aware of on their own when they first get online, and make their own decisions - and being free of bias
/...\ there is strong pull from the field, since that automatically implies people on the ground will have the time, resources and energy to take
things forward and take ownership of the technology they're setting up/using. -- Anish On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 7:47 PM, hellekin < hellekin@gnu.org
/...\ Anish Mangal wrote:
>
> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
> engaging them in conversation which was the
thing I had in mind when I
> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
> internet a better place
that it never works. For all the failings of free
> market capitalism, it's clearly better than a centrally planned
> economy. The
thing about functioning decentralized and federated
> systems is that they often work so well they become invisible. Nobody
> notices the *absence* of a middle
/...\ police are required.
To bring the point home, we can consider a market as a collection of
protocols. This conversation, or the re-decentralise
thing, probably
started by assuming these protocols all work perfectly, as per Hayeck.
Clearly not a worker. We need rules and regulations, we need
detection
/...\ response, and the response has to have some real impact.
These are, I suspect, human
things. Humans are interacting, and humans
need to address problems. As a direct outcome of the human model, we
might look at community size. This depends on the facilities being
offered. Distributed search, YaCy
computing. (All the tech, like containers and VMs, is old mainframe tech reimagined/rebooted.) Now we’re starting to see some efforts to push
things back toward personal computing again, albeit with a different more networked model from the old grey box PC. There are aspects of the cloud that
/...\ aren’t going away though. At central data centers it’s possible to achieve economies of scale that can make
things like storage and compute cheaper in bulk there than they are in a distributed system. They can also be more reliable. I host many
things
taken aback. But they acknowledge this fact all the time and are working on addressing that.
And also, that's really just for publishing
things. For using
things, even this tiny proof-of-concept
Dockerfile for Piwik got me way farther and was much easier than the official install
/...\ Product, I ran out of steam.
>>
>> I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of,
things
>> that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting.
>> I haven't seen anything like it right
taken aback. But they acknowledge this fact all the time and are working on addressing that.
And also, that's really just for publishing
things. For using
things, even this tiny proof-of-concept Dockerfile for Piwik  got me way farther and was much easier than the official
/...\ Product, I ran out of steam.
>>
>> I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of,
things
>> Â that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting.
>> I haven't seen anything like
anybody,
> certainly in the sense that my way is the right way - but I do recognize
> that it is important to discuss
things which people might not be a ware
> of on their own when they first get online, and make their own decisions
> - and being
/...\ strong pull from the field, since that automatically implies people
> on the ground will have the time, resources and energy to take
things
> forward and take ownership of the technology they're setting up/using.
>
> --
> Anish
/...\ wrote:
>
>> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
>> engaging them in conversation which was the
thing I had in mind when I
>> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
>> internet a better place
Kiktron RAKO [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] 2014-06-06 16:04:20 improve the kickstarter and the web. I have a tech wiki but I cant show now. Could you help me on the 2
things? or anyone in you team?
I can pay for that and for sure if you involve with us , and if i make the fund
/...\ have. I noticed that on redecentralize.
org  everybody is speaking about their own kick-ass new way of doing
things! Why not put them all together in  a way that every end-user that has been so far "learned", with the way that facebook
/...\ internet. Â You may call it a new social movement. Please see my humble draft. I tried to put together some of the
things I've seen here and they make sense. There are a lot of other useful tools that we may use, like ArkOS on the raspberry
think we agree - the shoulders of our forebears. I submit, though, that
there is such a
thing as real contribution to knowledge that is not
combinatorial. Do you feel then that not-physical property is an oxymoron?
/RT2>
> my way of thinking as a psycholinguist
/...\ knows better will
never help us pass this century.
>
> the forced philosophy of "open source"
>
There's no such
thing as the philosophy of "open source", forced or not.
Open source is a reduction of the free software philosophy to its
engineering aspect
/...\ privacy and possession
>
Possession and property are very distinct concepts. I'm very fine with
people possessing stuff. Owning property is another
thing entirely, that
depends on the capacity to enforce such property.
> The real problem is how to organize piecemeal encrypted transport.
>
Well, besides the fact
result of the firewall cargo cult we are in an arms race with ourselves to defeat our own security measures. We block
things, then design protocols to get around that, then block those, rinse and repeat. It's so unbelievably dumb. (2) Yup. (3) Maybe infosec companies encourage this kind
/...\ thing to sell more complex and expensive products? Nah... probably just stupidity. Nuke the infosec profession and start over. On Jul 4, 2014, at 12:27 PM, David Geib < trustiosity.zrm@gmail.com > wrote: > Unfortunately the cargo cultists think the blanket-block-all firewall is
(a) necessary and (b) effective
/...\ will shriek and scream bloody
murder if you suggest dispensing with it. The
thing that amazes me about it is nobody seems to think about the consequences. 1) Enterprise blocks everything at the firewall. Result: Employees come up with hacky work-arounds that impair security just so they
anybody,
> certainly in the sense that my way is the right way - but I do recognize
> that it is important to discuss
things which people might not be a ware
> of on their own when they first get online, and make their own decisions
> - and being
/...\ strong pull from the field, since that automatically implies people
> on the ground will have the time, resources and energy to take
things
> forward and take ownership of the technology they're setting up/using.
>
> --
> Anish
/...\ wrote:
>
>> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
>> engaging them in conversation which was the
thing I had in mind when I
>> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
>> internet a better place
definitely. Homomorphic crypto could have a *lot* of uses. It opens up the potential for
things like black box certificate authorities that could be distributed as open source software. The CA signs your key. With what? A key pair it generated internally that cannot *ever* be viewed by *anyone*. :) -Adam
/...\ trillion times -- but it is still a trillion times too slow.
But, someday -- and maybe someday sooner than we think, as these
things go -- maybe it will be feasible to have
things like zero-knowledge search engines. Maybe low-level zero-knowledge tasks, like packet-switching or whatever, could
that is the smartest
thing I've read in a long time. Thanks for sharing xx On 3 September 2014 09:44, Dominic Tarr < dominic.tarr@gmail.com > wrote:
I was very happy when I first saw ZeroTierOne, and also thought your
"I want to believe" post was brilliant
/...\ probably a pretty good chance that someone
currently online has it.
But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
(this could be malicious or by accident)
What you do have is crypto, and information processing powers many times greater
than when the property system
/...\ thisâ¦
>
> Decentralization doesnât necessarily imply that all peers are of equal size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>
> That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty much guarantees the domination
before signing it. That's the huge fail with the existing CAs. They'll sign anything. Moxie Marlinspike has had a number of relevant
things to say about that.
> That manual intervention must by definition take place over some other network, not the network in question, since the network
/...\ bubble. It's inherently deflationary which promotes hoarding and speculation which causes the price to increase in the short term, but the whole
thing is resting on the supremacy of its technical architecture. So if somebody breaks the technology *or* somebody comes up with something better or even a worthwhile
/...\ problematic. Using web of trust for key distribution is desperation. Key distribution is the poster child for applying multiple heterogenous methods. It's the
thing most necessary to carry out external to the network but they're trying to handle it internally using one method for everyone.
The ideal would
driver, which is a fork of the OpenVPN tap-windows driver with some extra ioctls that I added to support a few
things ZT1 needs and Windows does not provide. That is working and the tap driver is working, but there are still some rough edges around what goes into
/...\ they look right in the native Windows network connection dialogs. I want the user to be able to use those dialogs too to do
things like set firewall policies on a per-tap basis and have those settings stick.
3) I want to make sure that these connections
/...\ into the Windows network connections dialogs and say so.
I'd say ETA about a month for Windows since once those two
things are nailed down I will want to do a few weeks of my own testing and let auto-update run several times in various
Benjamin ANDRE [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] 2014-05-28 00:20:46 have. I noticed that on redecentralize.
org  everybody is speaking about their own kick-ass new way of doing
things! Why not put them all together in  a way that every end-user that has been so far "learned", with the way that facebook
/...\ internet. Â You may call it a new social movement. Please see my humble draft. I tried to put together some of the
things I've seen here and they make sense. There are a lot of other useful tools that we may use, like ArkOS on the raspberry
advice sounds. Rather, we would encourage people to learn security in a more precise and technical fashion, and that includes practising by implementing these
things yourself.
But - don't release them, or make claims about them, until you are genuinely honestly sure (as opposed to wanting to make a quick
/...\ buck) and have had it reviewed by similarly genuine and honest people. Also, even if you don't become good enough to release
things for deployment, learning about these concepts from a precise and engineering viewpoint lets you see through the bullshit more effectively.
X
On 28/02/14 14:55, Eric
Open stuff is only used tactically (e.g. Google/Apple using the web to beat Microsoft). That doesn't sound like a bad
thing at all. We want an open, decentralized web because it's useful for the greatest number -- any corporation which is able to take a long term view
/...\ being *forced* to take a short term view -- as they watch indexable content disappear into closed networks, and fewer people wanting/needing to search as
things get put in front of them via their networks -- and their deprioritization of open web technologies. See Eric Schmidt's display of righteous anger
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Yesterday's London meet-up 2014-01-08 10:49:44 presented /
hacked upon / broke / mended WebRTC, Tahoe, Crypho and techniques for
punching holes in firewalls / NAT.
We intend to do the same sort of
thing again in Freiburg, perhaps here:
http://www.fewo-direkt.de/ferienwohnung-ferienhaus/p507456
(Sleeps 4-10 people and there's further accommodation and plenty of
Alphorns close by - check
/...\ Sunday, March 16th -> Friday, 21st.
If you're interested in attending drop me and/or Holger (cc'd) a line.
Hope this makes
things clearer and I'm more than happy to answer any
questions you may have,
Nicholas.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Comment: Using GnuPG with
Adam Ierymenko [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Introduction 2014-01-06 11:50:49 local desktop. The first is a client that connects you to one running somewhere else, while the second actually runs one virtually. The closest
thing out there to ZT1 is probably LogMeIn Hamachi, but it's closed-source and aimed at the "enterprise" market. (Which I view as something
/...\ ZeroTier address of the "netconf master" for the network and a random 24-bit ID. The netconf master is a node resposible for doing
things like distributing configuration, creating and signing authentication certificates for private network membership, and assigning IP addresses. This too runs the same code as regular clients
Paul Frazee [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Introduction 2014-01-06 13:53:30 local desktop. The first is a client that connects you to one running somewhere else, while the second actually runs one virtually.
The closest
thing out there to ZT1 is probably LogMeIn Hamachi, but it's closed-source and aimed at the "enterprise" market. (Which I view as something
/...\ ZeroTier address of the "netconf master" for the network and a random 24-bit ID. The netconf master is a node resposible for doing
things like distributing configuration, creating and signing authentication certificates for private network membership, and assigning IP addresses. This too runs the same code as regular clients
think through the problem. I really want to push through the Little Centralization Paper (Tsitsiklis/Xu) a little more.
>
> To me the key
thing is this:
>
> Our hypothetical "blind idiot God" must be as minimal as possible.
I'm with you.
We've been toying
/...\ such an idea for a while too.
But looking into this "little centralization paper" I'm left puzzled
what *function* the centralized
thing should provide?
My over-all impression so far is, that the paper mostly concerns
efficiency and load balancing. I'm not yet convinced that these
problem. I really want to push through the Little Centralization Paper (Tsitsiklis/Xu) a little more.
>>
>> To me the key
thing is this:
>>
>> Our hypothetical "blind idiot God" must be as minimal as possible.
>
> I'm with
/...\ while too.
>
> But looking into this "little centralization paper" I'm left puzzled
> what *function* the centralized
thing should provide?
That's what I'm scratching my head about too. Their work is so theoretical it simply doesn't specify *what* it should do, just
trillion times -- but it is still a trillion times too slow.
But, someday -- and maybe someday sooner than we think, as these things go -- maybe it will be feasible to have things like zero-knowledge search engines. Maybe low-level zero-knowledge tasks, like packet-switching or whatever, could
from a virtual assistant who is truly at your service.
In a word : as surprisingly as it may seems from the current
situation, I
thing that the future of the internet will be
decentralized and user centric.
1.4Â Â Â What will be the essential functional
/...\ must be
trusted... there is a lot to invest to bring such a hardware to a
high level of integrity.
4/ personal data portability:
things are going well in France and
in EU : regulations has begun to take this point as a fundamental
right. But 1/ the texts
Jeremie Miller [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Yesterday's London meet-up 2014-01-08 06:03:22 broke / mended WebRTC, Tahoe, Crypho and techniques for
> punching holes in firewalls / NAT.
>
> We intend to do the same sort of
thing again in Freiburg, perhaps here:
>
> http://www.fewo-direkt.de/ferienwohnung-ferienhaus/p507456
>
> (Sleeps 4-10 people and there's further accommodation and plenty
/...\ Friday, 21st.
>
> If you're interested in attending drop me and/or Holger (cc'd) a line.
>
> Hope this makes
things clearer and I'm more than happy to answer any
> questions you may have,
>
> Nicholas.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12
eric@konklone.com > wrote:
Oh, these are cool, thank you for that (and for typing all that out on your phone). The anti-spam
thing is interesting, though it's not really taking advantage of the blockchain - you could implement the same strategy with USD, BTC is maybe just easier
/...\ Eric Mill < eric@konklone.com > wrote: Besides Bitcoin, or potentially on top of Bitcoin, how are people using blockchains for
things other than currency? I'd like to write about the subject, and round up what I can.
So for example, I'm aware of Namecoin
they so desire. I also ask
that you reflect upon the following (old, heavily recycled) quote - which
I like a lot: "The first
thing required is to discard any desire to turn
swordsmanship into... a matter of mere accomplishment. (...) (O)ne is not
to think of achieving victory over
/...\ That said, here's getting to what I intended to emphasize:
The process of decentralization needs to be everywhere.
It needs to be easier.
Things that are here and there need to be made available in commonly
available places and made easy to access / download / use in ways that
chance that someone
>> currently online has it.
>> But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
>> (this could be malicious or by accident)
>>
>> What you do have is crypto, and information processing powers many times
/...\ Decentralization doesnât necessarily imply that all peers are of equal
>> > size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>> >
>> > That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty
>> > much guarantees
have a fully
decentralised Youtube,
plus are doing anonymous streaming tests now.
Tribler is not merely a streaming Bittorrent client, we build various
things on
top of our P2P distributed database, such a wiki-style editing of metadata.
We do not use the TOR network, we enhanced their protocol
/...\ Looks like it's a bittorrent client
> that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The two
>
things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
> communication structure when applications don't communicate via
> file-sharing, and would
probably a pretty good chance that someone
currently online has it.
But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
(this could be malicious or by accident)
What you do have is crypto, and information processing powers many times greater
than when the property system
/...\ another point about this…
>
> Decentralization doesn’t necessarily imply that all peers are of equal size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>
> That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty much guarantees the domination of the ecosystem
Francis Irving [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-17 01:17:28 world with each other
that worked over PSTN via mobile devices correspondents used at the
time and acoustic couplers. Internet was not a big
thing in UK let alone
Africa then.
I've been thinking about how the vision was not
really accomplished after the World Bank
/...\ make good
decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not
enough just to give people the ability to change
things we also need to
give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems
and challenge the status quo.I am interested
in changing this
probably a pretty good chance that someone
currently online has it.
But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
(this could be malicious or by accident)
What you do have is crypto, and information processing powers many times greater
than when the property system
/...\ thisâ¦
>
> Decentralization doesnât necessarily imply that all peers are of equal size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>
> That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty much guarantees the domination
chance that someone
>> currently online has it.
>> But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
>> (this could be malicious or by accident)
>>
>> What you do have is crypto, and information processing powers many times
/...\ Decentralization doesn’t necessarily imply that all peers are of equal
>> > size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>> >
>> > That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty
>> > much guarantees the domination
currently online has it.
>> >> But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
>> >> (this could be malicious or by accident)
>> >>
>> >> What you do have is crypto, and information processing
/...\ necessarily imply that all peers are of
>> >> > equal
>> >> > size, just that all
things have equal opportunity to be peers.
>> >> >
>> >> > That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern
have a fully
decentralised Youtube,
plus are doing anonymous streaming tests now.
Tribler is not merely a streaming Bittorrent client, we build various
things on
top of our P2P distributed database, such a wiki-style editing of metadata.
We do not use the TOR network, we enhanced their protocol
/...\ Looks like it's a bittorrent client
> that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The two
>
things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
> communication structure when applications don't communicate via
> file-sharing, and would
system") is a virtual property (as in "being an attribute not having a
physical component").
To decentralize therefore needs (among other
things)
a) a component to model a legal system and
b) use (a) to model property
c) make sure that (b) is not tied to physical
/...\ pretty good chance that someone
> currently online has it.
> But then what if they refuse to serve it, or serve the wrong
thing?
> (this could be malicious or by accident)
These are *some* of those issues I skipped. You are right: that's the
easy part. Once
signatures.
> - Dataset coordination: the global blockchain and total ordering via PoW.
Bitcoin – it's a bit tiring. Sure it does solve these things in some
way. It has to.
The only thing we do slightly different is the data set coordination.
PoW is just not good enough
this simple phrase it’s that it embodies the raw essence of the principle Person-First, putting people first , the very
thing that is being squeezed out of all of our technology from every side right now as it’s twisted into corporate-first and government
/...\ same.
---- http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/03/25/musings-on-the-oculus-sale/
--- Either way, no matter who wins out, it was never about the rendering. All four of these visions have one
thing in common: the servers.
It’s about who owns the servers.
The servers that store your metrics. The servers that shout
ball.askemos.org/A876f1fe6998ca9d43f2e66c11a3f0d4a?do=notaries&version=19&login=public
An agent (here the wallet application) can control the list of notaries.
There is nothing to prevent the agent from doing stupid
things like
removing all notaries.
> The data model in secure-scuttlebutt is very simple. There are
> messages, feeds, and ids.
> a feed
/...\ that is, this is one wallet of it. You want to log in using "public" to
>>> find the actual
thing. It's controlled by a single (though having
>>> 80kLOC large) source file:
>>> http://ball.askemos.org/Aa176138e655369f8c01c3044ced70cfc
P S [LibreList] First Person Technologies 2014-03-29 17:32:15 this simple phrase it’s that it embodies the raw essence of the principle Person-First, putting people first , the very
thing that is being squeezed out of all of our technology from every side right now as it’s twisted into corporate-first and government
/...\ same. ---- http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/03/25/musings-on-the-oculus-sale/ --- Either way, no matter who wins out, it was never about the rendering. All four of these visions have one
thing in common: the servers. It’s about who owns the servers. The servers that store your metrics. The servers that shout
Tic Nticsebastian [LibreList] (no subject) 2014-05-28 00:08:52 that I have. I noticed that on redecentralize.org  everybody is speaking about their own kick-ass new way of doing
things! Why not put them all together in  a way that every end-user that has been so far "learned", with the way that
/...\ internet. Â You may call it a new social movement. Please see my humble draft. I tried to put together some of the
things I've seen here and they make sense. There are a lot of other useful tools that we may use, like ArkOS on the raspberry
erection of barriers, requiring the user to do extra steps. Good UX is often achieved through automation that involves trusting third parties or doing
things the "easy" (insecure) way. But I don't think it has to be this way. In particular, I think cryptography offers many opportunities for using
/...\ clever math and cryptographic transform composition to do
things in a way that is both user-friendly and very secure. But it requires a deep understanding of crypto to get there.
Couldn't agree more. And as the leaders in this push the boundaries, and other people follow their lead
sense, and some
>> groups are organising team meetups around the same time.
> It's not odd, if used for the right
thing. Unfortunately I cannot come.
> Really bad.
>
> I hope that there will be some discussions about the question: What do
> we really
/...\ need to centralize the Web to exchange. Actually, my
company, Cozy Cloud, is working on standards that could enable different
systems to privately share
things.
More details: http://camp.ouisharelabs.net/2015/dswg/ and
https://www.w3.org/community/decsharing/ .
--Tristan
> We are
> social animals. We go into the most crowded
these are cool, thank you for that (and for typing all that out on your phone). The anti-spam
thing is interesting, though it's not really taking advantage of the blockchain - you could implement the same strategy with USD, BTC is maybe just easier to script against.
Using
/...\ Eric Mill < eric@konklone.com > wrote: Besides Bitcoin, or potentially on top of Bitcoin, how are people using blockchains for
things other than currency? I'd like to write about the subject, and round up what I can.
So for example, I'm aware of Namecoin
fuse client is not stable enough to be released publicly
and WebDAV is no longer widely supported on client sides. While the
whole
thing should itself be able to run on Android, nobody had the
resources to actually compile for it. GUI client is just under
development. Same for transition
/...\ make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It
> is not enough just to give people the ability to change
things we also
> need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our
> problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested
Christian de Larrinaga [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] RDC 15 2015-10-16 13:38:46 world with each other
that worked over PSTN via mobile devices correspondents used at the
time and acoustic couplers. Internet was not a big
thing in UK let alone
Africa then. I've been thinking about how the vision was not
really accomplished after the World Bank and others
/...\ make good
decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not
enough just to give people the ability to change
things we also need to
give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems
and challenge the status quo.I am interested
in changing this
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Yesterday's London meet-up 2014-01-15 14:37:29 broke / mended WebRTC, Tahoe, Crypho and techniques
> for punching holes in firewalls / NAT.
>
> We intend to do the same sort of
thing again in Freiburg, perhaps
> here:
>
> http://www.fewo-direkt.de/ferienwohnung-ferienhaus/p507456
>
> (Sleeps 4-10 people and there's further accommodation and plenty
/...\ Friday, 21st.
>
> If you're interested in attending drop me and/or Holger (cc'd) a
> line.
>
> Hope this makes
things clearer and I'm more than happy to answer
> any questions you may have,
>
> Nicholas.
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knows better will never help us pass this century.
>
> the forced philosophy of "open source"
>
There's no such
thing as the philosophy of "open source", forced or not.
Open source is a reduction of the free software philosophy to its
engineering aspect
/...\ privacy and possession
>
Possession and property are very distinct concepts. I'm very fine with
people possessing stuff. Owning property is another
thing entirely,
that depends on the capacity to enforce such property.
> The real problem is how to organize piecemeal encrypted transport.
>
Well, besides the fact
decentralized email list software (ypotf).
You can interview me if I finish it, or perhaps if I don't.
I use a bunch of
things that might count because they communicate
substantially less with networks than contemporary services do.
* nmh (previously mutt and offlineimap)
* fossil
* MHTML firefox extension
* Kiwix
* recoll
/...\ annoying to install and to use.
Once I start carrying more hard drives with me, I'll probably set up
an offline OpenStreetMap
thing.
You could look at Internet
Kiktron RAKO [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] 2014-05-27 23:24:13 have. I noticed that on redecentralize.
org  everybody is speaking about their own kick-ass new way of doing
things! Why not put them all together in  a way that every end-user that has been so far "learned", with the way that facebook
/...\ internet. Â You may call it a new social movement. Please see my humble draft. I tried to put together some of the
things I've seen here and they make sense. There are a lot of other useful tools that we may use, like ArkOS on the raspberry
Looks wonderful. It's like Product Hunt for dapps, which is badly needed. You might have different categories of usable. There are things that are usable for developers and IT people and then things that are usable for end users. How do we submit stuff? IPFS, BitTorrent, ZeroTier
appreciating if you, Irina and Francis stay
> majorly involved, help people along and continue to drive and do
> interviews yourselves.
I think things are currently going ok, but as always more help, involvement, volunteers would be very welcome and would definitely benefit the community. Everyone
Francis stay majorly involved, help people along and continue to
>> drive and do interviews yourselves.
>
> I think things are currently going ok, but as always more help,
> involvement, volunteers would be very welcome and would definitely
> benefit the community. Everyone’s time
Francis stay majorly involved, help people along and continue to
>>> drive and do interviews yourselves.
>>
>> I think things are currently going ok, but as always more help,
>> involvement, volunteers would be very welcome and would definitely
>> benefit the community
Francis stay majorly involved, help people along and continue to
>>> drive and do interviews yourselves.
>>
>> I think things are currently going ok, but as always more help,
>> involvement, volunteers would be very welcome and would definitely
>> benefit the community
that would be really great too. I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and engaging them in conversation which was the thing I had in mind when I shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making internet a better place :-) Cheers, Anish
tablets and get their
software not from markets, but distribution systems like app
stores. I fear the ideal that markets do the right thing is a joke
because they are impossible to have in a capitalist society
really great too.
>
> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
> engaging them in conversation which was the thing I had in mind when I
> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
> internet a better place
wider comments.
Ideally this gets picked up by W3C or another standards body, we don't want
this to be an ownCloud-specific thing (why else publish it as a draft
standard?).
It is, very pragmatically, built on REST and WebDAV and TLS - no fancy global
distributed hashtable
Anish Mangal wrote:
>
> I believe the problem has atleast two aspects - educating people and
> engaging them in conversation which was the thing I had in mind when I
> shared this email, and second, the larger fight of generally making
> internet a better place
makes sense, and some
> groups are organising team meetups around the same time.
It's not odd, if used for the right thing. Unfortunately I cannot come.
Really bad.
I hope that there will be some discussions about the question: What do
we really want to do?
I think
hellekin [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] connecting 2015-09-16 16:15:21 SHA512
On 09/16/2015 02:14 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Now the ownCloud Conf is over I'm trying to wrap things up. There was
one
> announcement I think you folk find interesting: https://owncloud.org/c
onnect/
>
They use Pagekite. They could
Jos Poortvliet [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] connecting 2015-09-17 08:09:46 Poortvliet wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Now the ownCloud Conf is over I'm trying to wrap things up. There was
> one
> > announcement I think you folk find interesting: https://owncloud.org/c
> onnect/
> >
>
> They use Pagekite. They
will.sch [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Webcasts / Periscope 2015-10-16 15:17:45 tomorrow for people to tune in and on youtube afterwards. We have 3 rooms and also some free spaces which will have various things going on. If people want use Periscope as well I think it's a good idea. Will -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [redecentralize] Webcasts / Periscope Time
adam.ierymenko [GG] Re: So centralized! 2016-04-06 15:04:00 That brings up something that should go in everyone's "reasons
things get centralized" list: Installing, maintaining, upgrading, and troubleshooting software installs is very hard and time consuming. Centralization delegates that responsibility to someone else for a fee, either monetary or in the form of implied consent to data mining
/...\ Time (yours or someone else's) is very expensive, so this cost is often a lot less than the cost of manually maintaining
things. Decentralization is not just about networking, distributed systems, and data replication. It's also about solving a long list of more mundane problems that contribute indirectly
dominic.tarr [GG] Re: So centralized! 2016-04-07 02:01:00 okay, kicking the tires on this retroshare thing
I installed retroshare, think I other people to add me via my "ID Certificate":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Ira [GG] Re: Hi and mailing lists 2016-04-28 06:39:00 groups coming to discuss participation and representation with amazing progress; as well as the redecentralize unconference bit ( http://dcentproject.eu/dcentmadrid/democracy-lab/open-call/ ) (!) Registration for all the things happening is now online here: https://www.cvent.com/c/express/c98cc0f1-cdbd-4d5c-896b-86946f4a0d2d -- Irina Bolychevsky @shevski
used offline.
I am also using SECN (Openwrt) Batman based mesh networking in the
deployments I setup in rural places but still many things are
centralized (name resolution, content serving, dhcp). Would love to
make mesh networking truly decentralized
Here is part two. [Things I Learned Building the Skynet PART 2âââHow to Eat Dust] https://medium.com/@skynet.admin/things-i-learned-building-the-skynet-part-2-how-to-eat-dust-1a0c78a48fc7#.oc1bzbwcs I also just returned from teaching a few (local) folks in Spiti valley to create mesh networking, and if they want
think "critical" things like code repos would benefit most from being decentralized, so I guess something like git but completely decentralized. Websites is the bulk of the internet, so it would be very interesting to see more on decentralized self-publishing platforms. For personal use, cross-platform secure/private/anon messaging
become big enough to change the status quo. Figure out what it will take to get decentralized apps mainstream. Have fun and experiment. Try things out. Discover new ideas of what might be possible and unique selling points of decentralization. I would love volunteers to help. Those who've spoken
otherwise is excellent, it'll still go in.
Otherwise we really would get nowhere...
But note the usability requirement! Which very few things pass.
Alas, not even Signal - in my experience it doesn't reliably deliver
messages.
Francis
Janislav Malahov [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Redecentralize Conference! 2015-08-08 11:23:03 become big enough to change the status quo. Figure out what it will take to get decentralized apps mainstream. Have fun and experiment. Try things out. Discover new ideas of what might be possible and unique selling points of decentralization. I would love volunteers to help. Those who've spoken
become big enough to change the status quo. Figure out what it will take to get decentralized apps mainstream. Have fun and experiment. Try things out. Discover new ideas o
f what might be possible and unique selling points of decentralization. I would love volunteers to help. Those
Jos Poortvliet [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Redecentralize Conference! 2015-08-09 11:33:06
Ira [GG] Re: So centralized! 2016-04-07 09:18:00 Thanks both, the thing I'd like it not just hosting (I have a server..), but someone to maintain it (security upgrades, backups etc) and ensure it stays up and data doesn't get lost. I'd also settle for mailman
underlying tech is irrelevant - the hard bit is having a browser
standard for this.
The thing stopping me making micropayments isn't if I have to pay 5% to
Visa or use a centralised server, it is that there is no interface for
doing micropayments.
Anyone know
Francis Irving < francis@flourish.org > : The underlying tech is irrelevant - the hard bit is having a browser
standard for this.
The thing stopping me making micropayments isn't if I have to pay 5% to
Visa or use a centralised server, it is that there is no interface for
doing
Jan Kunkel [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2013-12-11 22:18:27
history than
that. Factually backing up statements about it originally being more
centralized, and so on.
So probably, finding more detailed references for the things the New
Yorker article mentions?
Generally, BTW, do please mention interesting articles or videos here!
I tweet them out from @redecentralize, and I'd rather
history than
that. Factually backing up statements about it originally being more
centralized, and so on.
So probably, finding more detailed references for the things the New
Yorker article mentions?
Generally, BTW, do please mention interesting articles or videos here!
I tweet them out from @redecentralize, and I'd rather
schrieb Eric Mill <eric@konklone.com>:
> Besides Bitcoin, or potentially on top of Bitcoin, how are people
> using blockchains for things other than currency? I'd like to write
> about the subject, and round up what I can.
>
> So for example, I'm aware
history than
that. Factually backing up statements about it originally being more
centralized, and so on.
So probably, finding more detailed references for the things the New
Yorker article mentions?
Generally, BTW, do please mention interesting articles or videos here!
I tweet them out from @redecentralize, and I'd rather
name of the resource *and* the place you go to get that
resource.
Short term is another matter. There are lots of incremental things
people can and should do now.
The dig at WebRTC is uncalled for - yes, right now you have to have
some other identity system
Product, I ran out of steam.
>>
>> I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of, things
>> that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting.
>> I haven't seen anything like it right
Ira [Email] There's more to decentralisation 2018-09-25 13:51:19.9682 Full post is here: https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-decentralised-are-you-a6539eeb27ff Would love your thoughts and ideas on this and what we should all be doing next! One thing I've seen since which may be interesting to people is https://newsocialist.org.uk/decentralising-the-internet/ Thanks, Ira -- Irina Bolychevsky @shevski
installation. This allows anyone to 'walk up and use' any device.
This 'everything is a webpage' approach however is just the first step. Once things are broadcasting URLs, we can move on to RESTful interfaces so devices can find and interact with each other, no HTML in site
name of the resource *and* the place you go to get that
resource.
Short term is another matter. There are lots of incremental things
people can and should do now.
The dig at WebRTC is uncalled for - yes, right now you have to have
some other identity system
walk up and use' any
> device.
>
> This 'everything is a webpage' approach however is just the
> first step. Once things are broadcasting URLs, we can move on to
> RESTful interfaces so devices can find and interact with each
> other, no HTML in site
Francis Irving wrote:
> The underlying tech is irrelevant - the hard bit is having a browser
> standard for this.
>
> The thing stopping me making micropayments isn't if I have to pay 5% to
> Visa or use a centralised server, it is that there
resource *and* the place you go to get that
> resource.
>
> Short term is another matter. There are lots of incremental things
> people can and should do now.
>
I really can't tell, but this might be relevant here. Can anyone
interpret the short-form intro
Minimum Viable Product, I ran out of steam.
I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of, things that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting. I haven't seen anything like it right now, but maybe it could tie together
Eric Mill < eric@konklone.com > wrote: Besides Bitcoin, or potentially on top of Bitcoin, how are people using blockchains for things other than currency? I'd like to write about the subject, and round up what I can. So for example, I'm aware of Namecoin , and the OkTurtles
maze@strahlungsfrei.de [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Intros and current projects 2014-01-02 23:56:09 Viable
> Product, I ran out of steam.
>
> I'd like to know if anyone is working on, or has heard of, things
> that would play into this sort of model of Easier Self-Hosting. I
> haven't seen anything like it right now, but maybe
Ira [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Hello! 2015-09-07 08:47:29 Haiti, India, Ghana,
Nepal and a few other places :)
The idea of a decentralized web is very central to our approach of
doing things. Looking forward to some great conversation and
(hopefully) brainstorming!
Cheers,
Anish
P.S. To find out more about XSCE, you may head to schoolserver.org
(ugly wiki), xsce.org
Francis Irving wrote:
> The underlying tech is irrelevant - the hard bit is having a browser
> standard for this.
>
> The thing stopping me making micropayments isn't if I have to pay 5% to
> Visa or use a centralised server, it is that there
resource *and* the place you go to get that
> resource.
>
> Short term is another matter. There are lots of incremental things
> people can and should do now.
>
I really can't tell, but this might be relevant here. Â Can anyone
interpret the short
Adam Ierymenko [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Introduction 2014-01-06 11:40:41 ZeroTier address of the "netconf master" for the network and a random 24-bit ID. The netconf master is a node resposible for doing things like distributing configuration, creating and signing authentication certificates for private network membership, and assigning IP addresses. This too runs the same code as regular clients
Paul Frazee [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Introduction 2014-01-06 13:46:47 ZeroTier address of the "netconf master" for the network and a random 24-bit ID. The netconf master is a node resposible for doing things like distributing configuration, creating and signing authentication certificates for private network membership, and assigning IP addresses. This too runs the same code as regular clients
Francis Irving wrote:
> The underlying tech is irrelevant - the hard bit is having a browser
> standard for this.
>
> The thing stopping me making micropayments isn't if I have to pay 5% to
> Visa or use a centralised server, it is that there
Eric Mill [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-02 11:34:27 article in the Economist this month (can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at explaining it to the general
reader
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] february meetup 2014-01-15 14:20:47 venue she had in mind. Perhaps it's the same one
Michael mentioned (C4CC)..? Ira..?
Assuming the venue I guess the only other thing to do is sort out
ticket booking.
N.
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Ira [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] february meetup 2014-01-15 14:56:41 venue she had in mind. Perhaps it's the same one
Michael mentioned (C4CC)..? Ira..?
Assuming the venue I guess the only other thing to do is sort out
ticket booking.
N.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
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Francis Irving [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] Spring of User Experience 2014-02-28 15:20:26 Just* as dangerous are cryptographically excellent products which are
hard to use and aren't marketed, therefore have no adoption.
I agree we need things which are BOTH technically sound AND have a
great user experience.
Francis
On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 09:48:38AM -0500, Eric Mill wrote
Just* as dangerous are cryptographically excellent products which are
hard to use and aren't marketed, therefore have no adoption.
I agree we need things which are BOTH technically sound AND have a
great user experience.
Francis
On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 09:48:38AM -0500, Eric Mill wrote
holger krekel [LibreList] any meeting point for tonight? 2015-10-16 08:18:38 make good decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems and challenge the status quo.I am interested in changing this
access to a section of the DOM for rendering its
UI, and no other privileges. This solves the data-containment
issue.
This really clarified things to me. Thanks. It's a nice example to
show where our approaches take a different route to the same
result. (While
access to a section of the DOM for rendering its
UI, and no other privileges. This solves the data-containment
issue.
This really clarified things to me. Thanks. It's a nice example to
show where our approaches take a different route to the same
result
because this is contrary to the individualised
ethos of most western developers (I don't want to say libertarianism) it
is not happening. Instead things like bitcoin come up which fuel the
next decade of predator capitalism.
Instead I would propose, for example, to found an organisation under
public
cross verify keys in person. Then go
through their bug tracker and help triage and add bugs, and send pull
requests for simple things like documentation improvements. Focus on
usability.
2) TeleHash tryout. They did this at the Colorado meetup, so could ask
for hints as to what worked
honest interchange. I'm going on vacation now for a week, but
send me an email and perhaps we can stay in touch as things develop.
Regardless of our varying definitions of free and their importance with
respect to the society's future, I think the world would
make good
decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not
enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to
give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems
and challenge the status quo.I am interested
in changing this
Looks like it's a bittorrent client that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The two things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement communication structure when applications don't communicate via file-sharing, and would this perform well enough
make good
decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not
enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to
give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems
and challenge the status quo.I am interested
in changing this
Besides Bitcoin, or potentially on top of Bitcoin, how are people using blockchains for things other than currency? I'd like to write about the subject, and round up what I can. So for example, I'm aware of Namecoin , and the OkTurtles project, which is trying
Nicholas H.Tollervey [LibreList] Decentralised symposium 2014-02-27 11:01:47 BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hi,
There's lots of interesting things going on but we're all so
(physically) far apart. For example, I live in the middle-of-nowhere
rural England and, earlier this week, Francis was in Liverpool (miles
away from me) giving a talk about
Anish Mangal [LibreList] Hello! 2015-09-02 22:02:28 Haiti, India, Ghana,
Nepal and a few other places :)
The idea of a decentralized web is very central to our approach of
doing things. Looking forward to some great conversation and
(hopefully) brainstorming!
Cheers,
Anish
P.S. To find out more about XSCE, you may head to schoolserver.org
(ugly wiki), xsce.org
Ross Jones [LibreList] Tracking interesting events/confs? 2014-05-15 08:36:30 managed to miss the boat on DecentralizeCamp ( http://decentralizecamp.com/ ), I was wondering if tracking interesting events/conferences would be a useful thing for redecentralize.org to do? We started on the Wiki to try and list groups that were either in progress, or being born, but didn’t get very
does it do contracts? Which did I miss?
Should I compare other properties too?
Note that info might be wrong or I'm missing things. Please correct me.
Thanks for you comments and suggestions.
http://ball.askemos.org/?_v=wiki&_id=1786
/Jörg
PS: If you feel like testing the payment system demo
Francis Irving [LibreList] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-02 09:04:56 article in the Economist this month (can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at explaining it to the general
reader
Webmail, LDAP, VPN & Firewall, etc.
Most of the apps are available via a point & click web interface. For
special needs or things not yet available as apps, it's a GNU/Linux
distro based on a "Prominent North American Enterprise Linux Vendor"
so you can install from
adam.ierymenko [GG] So centralized! 2016-04-04 15:38:00 opinion for a while that there is absolutely no problem in using centralized systems to help build decentralized ones. If it speeds things up or improves your communication or whatever, use it. Every previous tech revolution used the present to build the future too. - Adam @ ZeroTier
Jos Poortvliet [LibreList] connecting 2015-09-16 19:14:02
will.sch [LibreList] RDC 15 2015-10-15 13:25:28 make good
decisions and build lasting systems that benefit us all. It is not
enough just to give people the ability to change things we also need to
give people the information and data to accurately asses our problems
and challenge the status quo.I am interested
in changing this
usable enough!
Would love feedback, and also ideas of decentralized apps you can *actually use* - not just prototypes, or platforms without apps, or things without installers on major platforms.
Best wishes,
Francis
Glad to hear things are going well, Adam! I have a pretty good usecase for ZeroTier that I'll be checking out soon, so I'm looking forward to that. I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.
Who's next
semi-finalists in the Knight News Challenge.
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/feedback-review/secure-messaging-anywhere
Cheers,
Michael
On 25/04/14 16:51, Paul Frazee wrote:
> Glad to hear things are going well, Adam! I have a pretty good
> usecase for ZeroTier that I'll be checking out soon, so I'm looking
> forward
Steve Phillips [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-02 02:10:03 article in the Economist this month (can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at explaining it to the general
reader
Stephan Tual [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-02 10:33:41 article in the Economist this month (can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at explaining it to the general
reader
Giovanni P [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] GNUnet 2014-06-02 11:37:56 much about their internal workings, but they probably want to make a Windows-friendly version.
However, the RTC version seems to be the best thing that could happen to the project, and maybe it could take some community help.
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Ross Jones
Jörg F. Wittenberger [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-03 08:29:42 article in the Economist this month
(can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called
OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at
explaining it to the general
reader
Eric Mill [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-03 10:35:02 article in the Economist this month
(can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called
OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at
explaining it to the general
reader
Paul Frazee [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-03 10:17:33 article in the Economist this month
(can't find it to link to,
and paywalled anyway).
It seems to be one app of a thing called
OpenGarden, which is a
meshnetwork thingy for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist article was pretty good at
explaining it to the general
reader
Jörg F. Wittenberger [LibreList] Re: [redecentralize] FireChat in Economist 2014-06-04 10:32:38 article in the
Economist this
month (can't find
it to link to,
and paywalled
anyway).
It seems to be one
app of a thing
called OpenGarden,
which is a
meshnetwork thingy
for iPhones:
http://opengarden.com/faq#faq-general-001
The Economist
article was pretty
good at explaining
it to the general
reader
blanket-block-all firewall is
(a) necessary and (b) effective and will shriek and scream bloody
murder if you suggest dispensing with it. The thing that amazes me about it is nobody seems to think about the consequences. 1) Enterprise blocks everything at the firewall. Result: Employees come up with
application.
I just have to figure out how to get people to try it. So far nobody. I think the "compile it from source" thing is putting people off. It's not actually that hard, basically just install Debian, paste the commands from the instructions into a terminal and edit
another. I skirt around it
in my recent Europython talk.
Given the way the Kademlia DHT algorithm I'm using works I expect
several things to happen in this context:
* Individual nodes prefer peers that are reliable (for example, they're
always on the network and reply in a timely
back and think through the problem. I really want to push through the Little Centralization Paper (Tsitsiklis/Xu) a little more.
To me the key thing is this:
Our hypothetical "blind idiot God" must be as minimal as possible. That's why I said "provably minimal
designed to stand on their own and be
> self-verifiable through cryptographic signing.
Thanks for your feedback.
I see quite some interesting things in Drogulus.
However I'm "sort of" skeptic when I read "crypto signing". This term
is too generic and too often implies
being either way?
>
> Best
>
> /Jörg
>
Why do you think there is any relationship whatsoever between those two things?
We don't even know if Zooko's triangle is actually true or not. It has not even been formalised into precise mathematical language.
There
their own
>> and be self-verifiable through cryptographic signing.
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
> I see quite some interesting things in Drogulus.
>
> However I'm "sort of" skeptic when I read "crypto signing". This
> term is too generic
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with
Best
>>
>> /Jörg
>>
> Why do you think there is any relationship whatsoever between those two things?
I don't have a formalization of Zooko's triangle either. Hence my
challenge to do so.
For me I'm seeing Zooko's triangle
Thought of another point about this…
Decentralization doesn’t necessarily imply that all peers are of equal size, just that all things have equal opportunity to be peers.
That being said, I think the current network deployment pattern pretty much guarantees the domination of the ecosystem by massive
work.
>>
>> What I really wanted to demonstrate is this: how *easy* it would be to massively decentralize a lot of things if all the firewall/NAT cruft were out of the way.
> Network routing is certainly one important aspect of decentralization.
> But suppose Google
Bitcoin â it's a bit tiring. Sure it does solve these things in some
way. It has to. It's just a well-known example. Got one question here: this seems to replicate data. Does it protect
against malicious updates too? It creates
/A876f1fe6998ca9d43f2e66c11a3f0d4a
> that is, this is one wallet of it. You want to log in using "public" to
> find the actual thing. It's controlled by a single (though having
> 80kLOC large) source file:
> http://ball.askemos.org/Aa176138e655369f8c01c3044ced70cfc
> (be sure to read that in whitespace
that is, this is one wallet of it. You want to log in using "public" to
>> find the actual thing. It's controlled by a single (though having
>> 80kLOC large) source file:
>> http://ball.askemos.org/Aa176138e655369f8c01c3044ced70cfc
>> (be sure to read that
appreciating if you, Irina and Francis stay
> majorly involved, help people along and continue to drive and do
> interviews yourselves.
I think things are currently going ok, but as always more help, involvement, volunteers would be very welcome and would definitely benefit the community. Everyone’s time